The three omnis? Of course, I mean omni-presence, omniscience, and omnipotence. For example the doctrine of election logically follows from the fact that God knows all and that God is all powerful. The all seeing God knows ahead of time everything that is going to happen. Additionally, the Lord wills all that is going to happen. No power can compete with the power of God. With these facts in mind, all future events must be pre-ordained. Thus, God must know in advance all who will be saved, and must have willed it. At least this would seem to me to be the logic that would bring us to this conclusion.
Obviously, I did not heed Calvin's advice in the first section of 3.21 of the Institutes. "If anyone with carefree assurance breaks into this place, he will not succeed in satisfying his curiosity and he will enter a labyrinth from which he can find no exit."
Well, these were some of my thoughts going through this section. Indeed, reading 3.21.1 made me first chuckle and then go red in the face. Calvin writes, "Human curiosity renders the discussion of predestination, already somewhat difficult of itself, very confusing and even dangerous. No restraints can hold it back from wandering in forbidden bypaths and thrusting upward to the heights. If allowed, it will leave no secret to God..."
My question is: "Are there certain secrets God keeps, places, we as theological students, should not go?"
Jesus said, "I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?" John 3:12. I believe there are concepts and dispositions about God's love, mercy and grace that we will never understand or grasp while living in sin. I believe too often time when discussing things of this nature we rule our God's mercy. It is his mercy that sustains us until we all come to the realization that we are in need of a Savior. Even in our theological discourses the elements of love, peace, mercy and grace need to be present. Because without those things disclosed in the argument we eliminate the true nature of God. Sure there are Secrets that God hasn't revealed to us, much like a woven carpet we only see the unruly threads scattered this way and that way, we fail to see the big picture that all those chaotic strands create. God sees that picture and knows each stitch and where it needs to be inserted for the entire tapestry to be beautiful.
ReplyDeleteThanks Jeff, well said. Sometimes it is hard to separate the theological from the practical application. I tend to dwell in the theoretical, which is not always where I should be.
ReplyDeleteHi Bill,
ReplyDeleteThank you for this excellent and questioning summary. I believe that God does in fact have "secrets" that we cannot know as we are progressing through this life. For me it is the searching which is part of the journey (Calvin might not like this!) We can know only dimly what is the heighth and the depth of God's mercy. It is God's Holy spirit which reveals these truths to us. I struggled with calvin's words regarding the probing of the mysteries of God. God has given us minds to be used for His glory. Why then cannot we ask questions. Why then cannot we seek after knowledge of God. We cannot completely obtain such knowledge but does this seeking not call us into relationship with God?
I like your attitude, Ric. I think you are right. We should be contemplating the nature of God. Nevertheless, I think we have to be rigorous in our speculation. (A rule, I confess, I do not always follow). I think we also need to ensure that differences that come about due to our enquiry do not divide us. After all, in the past, minor differences of opinion with regard to religion have resulted in heresy trials, etc. For example I think the death of Michael Servetus was a tragedy and perhaps a stain (at least) on Calvin's reputation.
Deletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Servetus
Bill, thank you for a great question!
ReplyDeleteI wonder if the heresy lies not so much in the seeking of the mysteries of God, as in the presumption of finding them. I believe Calvin did a lot of seeking, but always seems to stop himself at that invisible precipice between earthly knowledge and heavenly knowledge.
Which leads me to wonder a little into the mysteries of Calvin? In the latter sections of 3:24, Calvin tries to refute the scriptural passages that seem to indicate salvation for all - perhaps a little zealously, in my book. It seems Calvin seeks some comfort in the knowledge that there are those to be condemned. Perhaps because of his persecuted state? It is harder to wrap my mind around this comfort when I am not feeling the acute effects of persecution. Just as we are taught that context is everything in the biblical books, so too, perhaps, with Calvin. Just some labyrinthine thoughts :)
Yes, very labyrinthine. We have a certain amount of biographical knowledge of Calvin. I can see how that could influence his thinking on this. I got the same feeling you did that Calvin does try deflect the implications of some of those scriptural passages that did not explicitly support his argument. I took it as him attempting to buttress his theological system, and yet you could be correct that it was also him dealing with his own past.
DeleteI am jumping on this. I think it explains evil. If all are saved then the true presence of evil is hard to explain. If all are chosen, then all would in faith act righteously in faith. If some are destined for hell, it is much easier to explain evil. For example, Adolph Hitler. I don't necessarily agree with my statement, but I do think it makes the presence of evil simpler to explain. Now, however, Calvin is caught with would a good God create creatures destined for hell?
DeleteI liked your wild card post very much!
ReplyDeleteI find Calvin's view of predestination disturbing. As I was reading this portion I was surprised and felt as if I were entering the labyrinth..
In answer to your question:
I do think there are many topics we are not privy to, which God 'protects us (humanity) from' these will be kept from us, I believe no matter our ways of searching. And so part of my answer is an encouragement to search, to ask questions and to seek. But also as a reminder, there are some things God has determined as better left unknown to us. So, we should search, seek and at some point also rest in our unknowing as well.
Thanks, Claire. I like your answer that we seek, but there are hidden secrets that we cannot fathom. And yet as Christ says in Matthew 7:7 "seek and ye shall find" (KJV) If we do find, do we really understand quite what it is that we have found? Wait, I think I am entering the labyrinth here.
DeleteHi Sharon,
ReplyDeleteI would agree that the heresy is in fact in presuming that we "know" God and I think this is where Calvin might be as well. From the beginning of our journey into Calvin, there has been that thought that we cannot completely know God but that there is a part of us which seeks.
Thanks Wil, God' certainly has his revealed will and his concealed will. We know in part now but we will know fully once in his presents. About God's foreknowledge I think it is not like he looks in a crystal ball and can know all by looking down the tunnels of time but instead He knows all because He knows what He has decreed. What ever God decreed must be so His foreknowledge is from the certainty of what he has commanded to be.
ReplyDeleteThis part of Calvin got me to thinking about how in the Old Testament only the Jews were God's chosen people. It appeared as if the rest of us were condemned. Then God sent His Son and we discovered that Gentiles were included in God's salvation plan. Now, on this side of the cross, we can see that there were types in the Old Testament that pointed to Jesus. Much clearer now than then. Yet I believe a few of those in the Old Testament "got it." So, yes there are secrets. But I agree with Ric, it is the seeking and wanting to know that draws us into relationship with God.
ReplyDeleteBeing warned not to follow the rabbit trail, Bill wandered off, never to be seen again.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui442IDw16o
This is a fun discussion. I agree with Clarie that there are topics that God does not fully reveal to us. Of course, the systematic theologians are working to have it all make sense and where one piece works, another falls flat. I think this is part of God's plan, however, that we continue to seek the truth, that we continue to read the Bible and see it revealed to us as not only our individual lives progress but as history progresses. In other words, part of the promise of God is in the very continued movement of questioning. This explains why Calvin is imperfect. It reminds me a little of science. We scientific theories that seem to explain the universe and we use this model until something better emerges. For example, we generally accept Einstein's theory of relativity as scientific fact and yet Einstein himself that there was something fundamentally wrong with his theory. No one listened because it worked. OK, now we are looking at different models for understanding the universe as quantum physics and the theory of relatively don't align. In comes newer scholars such as Stephen Hawking who are crafting a new paradigm for understanding the universe. Does this mean that Einstein was wrong? Hawking right? I don't think so. It means that we are continuing to understand the laws of the universe. I think this is part of our purpose to continue to see how the Holy Spirit continues to guide humanity. I suppose I have opened a new can of worms in looking at faith and science, but I see them as absolutely aligned as part of God's plan for humanity.
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