tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3336172740435891338.post1717681195535347041..comments2023-07-03T04:21:15.876-07:00Comments on Zero Degrees Calvin: Election DayEleshahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03764991021577652939noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3336172740435891338.post-17543469514628653212016-04-14T19:08:57.140-07:002016-04-14T19:08:57.140-07:00Jeff, great post on the topic of double predestina...Jeff, great post on the topic of double predestination. I really like knowing that there's no pressure to save souls. That part is in God's hands, as you said. Would that I took more courage in knowing that is truth! What really stretches my imagination when it comes to double predestination is this idea that God dooms some from the beginning. I certainly hope my name didn't make that list! Can you imagine?! I'm with Christy in that I like to error on the side of grace and love. I suppose when it comes down to it, I don't really have much say in the matter. Great things to ponder. Thank you, Jeff!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03543979182146938361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3336172740435891338.post-47418442806764952962016-04-14T19:07:31.166-07:002016-04-14T19:07:31.166-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03543979182146938361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3336172740435891338.post-78491580444811751752016-04-14T06:26:54.283-07:002016-04-14T06:26:54.283-07:00Really love the way in which you have worded and s...Really love the way in which you have worded and shared this section of Calvin. Thank you.<br />Predestination sits fairly well with me, as you have shared, it simply takes the pressure off of us (me). Although, I do find it very difficult to accept and embrace double predestination, I trust the Lord in all of this. Claire Brettellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03714718939189642214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3336172740435891338.post-45392171362023639362016-04-12T14:49:20.673-07:002016-04-12T14:49:20.673-07:00I don't think predestination excludes free wil...I don't think predestination excludes free will. God is all knowing, and knew us before we were formed in the womb. He already knows what we are going to choose, even before we choose it. So, I think we can still make the choice. I just think that God knew what I would choose before I did. I don't understand, but I do believe.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05888152571622743765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3336172740435891338.post-10852017721702616592016-04-12T05:23:05.500-07:002016-04-12T05:23:05.500-07:00Yes, predestination and eternal election are ideas...Yes, predestination and eternal election are ideas that are difficult for we Americans to accept. The power of the individual will has long been part of our politics and is deeply imbedded in culture. Nearly every action movie has its main character struggle against the forces of inevitable and almost certain destruction, and by the force of will overcome evil, at least until the next time it "rears its ugly head."<br /><br />Calvin makes a good argument for predestination. In the cerebral sense I am convinced, but deep down inside I want there to be free will. But ultimately, honestly, I think for most Christians knowing or not knowing whether there is election or not is a matter of adiaphora. In the breach, when we are a confronted with life, when we are confronted with the choice between good and evil, whether we are elected or not it will at least seem as though that choice is an act of will.RaymentWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03835017159257134157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3336172740435891338.post-29355621101145215632016-04-11T18:48:15.946-07:002016-04-11T18:48:15.946-07:00I couldn't imagine the horrific things you'...I couldn't imagine the horrific things you've experienced in people and been around even if not directly. Even in the darkest moments God's light can shine through. The Work of the Holy Spirit is probably more visible in the darkest parts of the world. I know in the darkest moments in my life that is when I can see God's hand the clearest. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06211027215684722839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3336172740435891338.post-11894838168160985422016-04-11T18:40:47.384-07:002016-04-11T18:40:47.384-07:00I totally agree with you when it comes to the doub...I totally agree with you when it comes to the double predestination and the thought that God would send someone to hell. Good catch, and great points. Thanks so much. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06211027215684722839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3336172740435891338.post-91190434248271092582016-04-11T18:28:39.768-07:002016-04-11T18:28:39.768-07:00I love the verse in Job. The message version actu...I love the verse in Job. The message version actually says, "I run this Universe." (Job 41:11) It always makes me smile. How can the creation tell the Creator what is right or wrong, just or unjust? Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06211027215684722839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3336172740435891338.post-55079977342269482922016-04-11T18:25:33.464-07:002016-04-11T18:25:33.464-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06211027215684722839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3336172740435891338.post-42128915347028783832016-04-11T13:28:02.088-07:002016-04-11T13:28:02.088-07:00Predestination is definitely a tough topic to disc...Predestination is definitely a tough topic to discuss. I really enjoyed your thorough summary of this topic. It was a lot of reading, but I do appreciate the amount of ink that Calvin gives to the subject. Your question brings out a lot of internal thought of eternal things. How does it sit with me? If I look to my experiences in the army, I could tell you that I have seen and experienced evil in the world. Through those same experiences, I have seen God’s good work and the mighty power of grace. Some of the things that I have seen and witnessed, it surely falls into line with the secret plan of God and the Scripture you quoted above, Roman 9:18, “God has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.”. Evil is not easily discussed by a society that has only read about it (warning student’s opinion). Many of the people that I served with only feel comfortable talking about evil and experiences with others who have had similar experiences. I say these things as a witness and not a judge. There are some really hardened people in the world, but I will say they are destined for what God will.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07027020693440934521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3336172740435891338.post-37881756546389051482016-04-11T11:09:18.707-07:002016-04-11T11:09:18.707-07:00Predestination is certainly evident in the teachin...Predestination is certainly evident in the teaching of Paul and St. Augustine but is further developed by Calvin. It is Calvin that the develops the idea of Predestination into the deeper double predestination that so many people struggle with. Obviously, the centrality of the sovereignty of God is the overriding principle of the doctrine of Predestination. Luther, too believed in predestination (3.21.1 note 2) but not in the idea of "double predestination" which is the doctrine that really offends modern day readers. So, in responding to your question, I want to respond to double predestination, the idea that some are damned, and it is here that I definitely agree with Laurie that it is not my role to guess who is in or out and not to judge anyone. However, I still wonder about a God that would preordain some of his precious, good creation to destruction. Calvin even admits that this is a "baffling question for many." (3.21.1) I think perhaps even more baffling is that in ordaining some to destruction, God is willfully denying some from his kingdom and that in doing so God is "righteous" and "just toward the reprobate (3.22.3). <br />I personally struggle with this, and I think because in emphasizing God's sovereignty, Calvin is underestimating God's grace and love. For the modern day Christian, who emphasizes these aspects of God more, this is really harsh. Clearly, it was harsh for many in Calvin's day as well. In accepting this view of predestination, however, we can come to terms with the presence of evil and perhaps as as Jeff points out, with wondering why we weren't successful in sharing God's love. Still, I think Calvin's explanation of God's work regarding salvation reflects his inability to really know God. There are too many inconsistencies with this doctrine and his broader theology for me think he got all of it right. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13034392446757561258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3336172740435891338.post-22683613829245893572016-04-10T15:16:46.386-07:002016-04-10T15:16:46.386-07:00Thanks for your post Jeff! Predestination is a tou...Thanks for your post Jeff! Predestination is a tough topic. I can handle the thought that God is in control, that He makes the decisions, the calling and the saving. God’s speech in Job, “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?” (Job 38:4) very clearly puts us in our place and God in his. I find comfort in the passage, “He chose us before the foundations of the world were laid.” (Eph. 1:4a) The harder pill for me to swallow is God “barring the door of life to those he has given over to damnation.” (Ch 21, Summary of election, p. 931) Ultimately, it comes down to trust for me. I have to trust that God is all good and all loving. He hasn’t published a list of who’s in and who’s out, so I choose to live “as if I’m in” and try not to guess or judge anyone else!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10102035312463554536noreply@blogger.com